00:59
WW: Hi Deborah, such a pleasure to finally meet you. I am really looking forward to this for weeks now, do you remember when we first talked about the idea of doing a podcast together?
01:07
D: It was definitely last year.
01:14
WW: I think so. So dear listeners the next minutes will become an interesting and very exiting journey through a technique called non-violent-communication. But before we dive into the topic of NVC, Deborah would you please give our audience an overview about your background, especially what was it that brought NVC into you’re life, and what was it that brought you together with NVC to Austria?
01:42
D: Yes, well that’s quite a few years ago, that’s 20 years ago but at that time when I had been working here I was in Austria in Vienna as a English trainer for adult-education. Our director of the school wanted us to do personal development and said there is a conference over in England and that we can all go there and choose what we want to go and listen to and learn and grow and so I was thinking looked in the brochures ooh, this looks interesting, this guy an American guy, Marshall Rosenberg. And so I said I’ll go to that workshop. And that was the beginning. (laughs) I went to his workshop. And he was also on the podium where he was there for everybody at the beginning to introduce what we were doing. And so I went to his workshop. And then I got so excited told all my other collogues about Marshall Rosenberg and his work. Just being inspired by him in this short workshop.
02.43
WW: And how did you come to Austria, just together. Because you where trainer here for ..?
02:51
D: Oh yeah, that’s another story. Yeah how I came to Austria was why I fell in love with an Austrian and at that time we were sailing on a boat around Mediterranean and went to the Caribbean and went to America and then he said: would you like to come to Austria? And come and live in Vienna? Well, ok, I am up for some adventure. And then I came to Vienna and that’s when I came to a country not speaking the language and that was a bit of a challenge at the beginning and then so this whole thing about communication was interesting me how to come around, cause I then began to observe people, trying to understand with body-language and I think I got a lot of understanding through body-language about people. And then when I started learning the language I was a little bit surprised sometimes that I did understand and other times it was like, oh I do not understand. Anyway that was the beginning and then one day I meet this woman at bowling, an American woman, she invited me to become a teacher here for adult education and that was a curiosity that opened up for me that I think I had it in my roots that I has to be a trainer.
04:13
WW: Sound´s great, and for everyone who wants to know more about Deborah and her NVC history, I highly recommend watching the Mountain talk on youtube, which is a 20 min. interview in German, recorded in June this year and you will find the link in the transcript of this podcast.
Deborah, how would you as someone who lives and breathes NVC in every sec. of your life, how would you describe this technique to somebody who expects let’s say just an one-sentence-answer?
04:46
D: It’s very easy but extremely challenging. You think that you would be get it instantly but you recognize it in yourself that there is something inside that says: oh yes, I understand, oh yes that would make sense, but actually putting it into practice, that’s the most challenging part. And I think that’s because we are so conditioned with habits. And to change habits does take some time. But so is becoming more conscious about our communication instead of just brawling out you know what ever we want to say you know and not reflecting about what do we really want to say.
05:25
WW: Would you say it’s like learning a new language from the beginning?
05:30
D: A new old language because I remember Marshall Rosenberg saying that whatever I am going to tell you is nothing new. He put it together help us to have something practical, having model to get to the layers of what really connects us as human beings again. Because we all want connection but somehow we missed out what was keeping us apart, what was bringing up conflicts and things and it was through our communication. So it’s about more awareness.
06:07
WW: So I remember my first encounter with NVC which was during a training session called: how to give feedback. And the trainer introduced us to the 4 steps of NVC, for everyone who does not know them, the first is observation, second feelings, third is need and the forth is request. So, would you agree that these 4 steps or pillars, I don’t know how to call them are the key-elements in NVC?
06:37
D: Yes that helps us to becoming, it gave me a lot of clarity about separating from why I have this emotion, or what are the facts and not interpretations what my needs and what do I really want from the other person or for myself. So the clarity that comes across through this model. But it could sound very technical at the beginning for people learning. Because at first you gotta sort it out actually what’s going on inside me. But through the time you start actually, as you said learning a language or just sometimes really interpreting when you are coming up with judgements or blaming or what’s going on with the other person, you start actually translating it into feelings and needs.
07:24
WW: That’s what I remember too it was hard for me because I was stuttering and stopping and speaking very very slowly when I started with NVC, does that come with it?
07:35
D: Yes absolutely. And I think the stumbles and falling down is part of learning anything, you know like an instrument or a bicycle or anything new, so that’s the challenge. On the other hand, at the end of the day, if you are willing to go through the challenges of, there are something to reap from it, from your communication.
07:59
WW: I remember an interview with Marshall Rosenberg where he said that he was not satisfied with the word NVC or non-violent-communication itself, because the word violence, how would you as an expert describe the term violence exactly? What is it? To threaten someone, or, what is it?
08:25
D: What I got of it, some people might have a different approach to it, well I think that Marshall says, all forms of violence are tragic expressions of unmet needs. So what I understood it is that, when you actually have a conflict, it’s around strategies the actions what people are doing. Between two people or it could be a group of people. But if the violence goes towards like, the next step would go like: I only care about my needs and I don’t give a damn about your needs and I’ll do anything to get my needs met not even consider you. So that’s where a form of violence can come out of pure frustration … could you don’t know how to express or how to get to what you want without you know sometimes you harm the other person just to get what you want. And that’s the change that can happen is that’ the form of violence, and I also did reflection in the beginning of learning this model, learning about yourself, and if you not haven’t been connected with your own needs sometimes you can just say: my needs matter and yours don’t. But it’s not. It’s about interdependent. Your needs matter, my needs matter and how are we going to find a way together, and that’s the difference. Does that make sense?
09:54
WW: It does make sense, totally, because what I heard is you are always up for a win-win-situation, so that everybody’s needs are met.
10:03
D: To the best we can all live peacefully together, you know, and I think that’s what really drove me about to understand what about this work and we can find peaceful ways to meet our needs, your needs and my needs without, you know, harming each other. It’s beautiful if it works.
10:22
WW: Deborah, as a Martial Artist I have to admit that it is a real challenge – at least to me – to practice fighting techniques without bringing aggression and violence into the game. So,
would you agree with me when I say that controlled aggression or violence can sometimes be supportive or even helpful?
10:46
D: Well, it’s a big question I mean as far as I understand that your Martial Art is about showing your borders, isn’t it? It’s about to say how far can I… where is stop and where is go. But you also want to interact with the person in a way that it’s going not to be harmful. Your intention is not to hurt.
11:13
WW: It’s not to hurt, but I do need aggression, some kind of…
10:18
D: What you need an energy force, I call it, you say aggression, it can be negative and it can be positive, aggression can be in your power to say, that’s a no-go for me: stop! You know. Or to express myself in a clear way, what am I longing for what am I needing and in a way, and sometimes the other person can receive me and the other person might not receive me if I am being aggressive in an attacking way, hurting them all. So for me NVC is about actually being honest and open, expressing yourself at the same time being able to be empathic to the other person. Being up to listen to the other person as well. So I don’t know. I don’t see it as aggression I see it as a form of being in power with your own needs and taking care of yourself. As well as the other person.
12:18
WW: I am thinking about a particular situation in self-defense for example, so how do I behave when I see someone is in a dangerous situation, I am just trying to find out how I have to behave to support, or to help this person, and for me it is almost impossible to do it without physical, I wouldn’t call it violence exactly, but without some physical interactions or interventions.
12:51
D: Well, there is another part of NVC, non-violent-communication talks about protective of use of force. And the protective use of force is to intervene when there is a form of danger, so the other one doesn’t get hurt. And the other form, punitive form is I punish you, I punish you if you don’t do what I tell you to do. If you don’t do what I tell you to do I am gonna punish you. So this is reward and punishment. But if you do it a good way you get rewarded and if you do it the bad way you get… So it’s that black and white thinking. But in this way it’s really about what I just said.
13:32
WW: So it’s about your intentions.
13:34
D: Your intentions, it’s all about intentions and connection.
13:41
WW: Thank you, usually violence can be identified very quickly through certain signs in the body language, but how does this relate to the spoken language. How can someone identify violence in a conversation? For example: are there specific signs, words
14:00
D: To use the word violence in that respect, I think what it is when you get triggered by somebody doing something or saying something or not saying something and it triggers something in your pain of not taking care of your needs, that can upset someone. But the person actually is upsetting is that’s what’s going on inside them, so maybe the haven’t felt save, then they can be triggered, or if someone’s not being heard, if your needs are not being respected or if you not being cared for or as you said mindfulness or Achtsamkeit, I love the German word Achtsamkeit. Somethings stirs up in you and this is an energy-force and in the non-violent way would be to express that and say, when you say that I get really triggered because I feel upset and I would like you to speak in a tone that I can hear myself too, or whatever. The clarity what you are wanting. So but I wouldn’t want to put a label on that violence. It’s not so easy to answer that.
15:22
WW: Any signs in combination of body-language and the spoken words, it’s not easy because it’s individual and depending on the situation. Is that what you mean?
15:35
D: Yeah, I mean I did a training the other day it was about just expressing yourself non-verbally and person kept coming closer and closer and closer to the person. And this person was backing off, always running away. Or was going into the attack forward. And then I said what stopped that person just say: no, really just saying no go. You know just being very clear. That doesn’t work for me. So they did it through non-verbal way and it took them a while and so it’s also to be able to translate that into words to do the same action when is my no by using words and so I think that energy has to be like I’m fully clear with myself, that’s a no-go for me. It’s an energy-force again.
16:27
WW: Marshall Rosenberg often acted in peace negotiations sometimes even in the middle of a war-zone, so, where he tried to bring up a mutual needs between the to parties. So I’m curious, does NVC work across different cultures? Or to be more specific: Can the language of the heart – as NVC is also sometimes called I think?
D: Yes.
WW: Can it be spoken and understood by everyone, regardless of culture?
16:59
D: Well, I haven’t been to every culture, every country of the world. But watched the countries that Marshall reached and trained over the years when he was alive, yes definitely and now we are spreading, you know NVC is being shared in…, I was just listening to somebody was just being certified in Taiwan and someone being in Japan, so that’s for me quite far away in Asia, yes so, absolutely. It is a language of the heart, it’s universal, we are all human beings on this planet, all trying to get our needs met. But every culture has different ways of meeting needs and I think that’s universal, but we have different ways of meeting it. So our culture or their culture may have different ways of behavior but if you actually go down to the root of it, if you really connect with that, what is there need, it’s universal. So every human beings on this planet earth have needs and when we all have a vocabulary and learn because we do talk about needs but sometimes we are not clear, as I said before, so yes it is definitely. And I worked in countries too, were I’ve worked and people translated, and the had their own vocabulary. In Spain they had many more words for feelings. And some countries they are very clear about, they had different words also for needs, so this can be a little bit a discussion about what really what is a need and what is a value and making the difference between strategies and needs.
18:39
WW: And worst case: you can always ask about more specific questions about what the need really is.
D: Yeah, exactly.
18:50
WW: Yeah Deborah, I have one more question for you, so how are you feeling right now?
18:58
D: I’m relieved (laughs), I’ve found it a little bit excited with microphone here, and we got the technical guy here, your son with the headphones and a computer and your own microphone, so this is a little bit more official than having an exchange, and I’m relieved that it’s coming towards the end, and very grateful that you’re interested in this topic and do the recording and the interview with me, so I am very grateful for that too cause it’s very much of my heart this topic.
19:36
WW: It’s so nice listening to you, because you are firing you your feelings where I for example have to think seconds when you ask me that question I have to think what I am really feeling and not feeling myself forced to give you just an answer, I am really impressed, that’s why you are a professional
20:00
D: Well, you get to learn, you are connecting your body with your thinking and to allow to really go into what is my body feeling. Am I feeling really relaxed, sort of like this, (sighs), so it’s really the communication with yourself. That’s the practices.
20:18
WW: But dear Deborah, that wasn’t really the last question (laughs) I just wanted to put the tension away.
D: (laughs) so that relieve is all over
20:33
WW: No, the question would be: what question that I did not ask you during the interview would you like to answer? So, just take your time, we will come back after a short break.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
21:13
WW: So what’s the question Deborah?
21:18
D: My favorite question is when you ask somebody what brings you alive.
21.23
WW: Ok, Deborah, what brings you alive?
21:26
D: What brings me alive is playfulness, laughter and humor and connection with people. And to do something that you really love that brings you alive. It’s all of that in combination that brings me alive.
21:44
WW: Wow I like that one.
D: So what brings you alive?
WW: (laughs) We don’t have time for that, I need time to think about it.
D: You get back to me today, tomorrow or next week
22:00
WW: But before you really can go Deborah, you know what comes next?
D: No.
22:08
WW: No, it’s the Achtsamkeits-Check out. I give you eight questions. You can answer either with one word or maximum one sentence.
D: Ok, you are going to check, you give me a sign.
WW: Yeah, I give you a sign, one sentence ok, I think I have to be more clear, more precise, yes.
D: (laughs) how many words has a sentence.
22:33
WW: question number one. What is something you came across recently that gave you hope or inspiration?
D: I met 18 clowns and they were all just fully in the present moment and just were fully of joy and playfulness
WW: 18 clowns? Must have been a workshop?
D: Yes.
WW: Ok, (laughs) I was wondering
D: Where did you meet them on the street all at once
23:14
WW: Question number two. What was the best piece of advice you have ever been given?
D: Oh, it comes to my mind spontaneously, my grandfather, he said do what you love to do and just go for it.
23:33
WW: Ok, is there, third question, the worst advice?
D: I had one, I was really shocked, it says what you are doing is too humanitarian, and that was like, or basically stop what you are doing, you won’t get anywhere with what you are doing. I was a bit – wow – ok I won’t hear that, listen to that advice.
24:00
WW: Number four, if you could rule the world for one day, what actions would you take?
D: I would have a big party with all my friends (laughs) we would dance all night long
24:22
WW: Number five, I guess you already answered it but anyway, what feelings and needs where present during our podcast for you today?
D: Feelings and needs during the…, well there where many feelings and needs going through, but basically is to contribute, contribute to if anybody is listen to this and a kind of curious then might hear something of sort that goes: aha yeah that might be helpful for me. Yeah making life more wonderful that’s what I love to do if I can make life more wonderful for somebody else and for myself too.
25:02
WW: Number six. If you could go back in time to your 20 year old self, what advice would you give young Deborah?
D: That time when I were 20? Don’t take life too seriously
25:21
WW: Good advice, number seven. Do you remember an event were NVC has been particularly helpful for you?
D: I think the most incredible experience I had was with Marshall in Budapest, when we had two groups of women coming from Serbia and Bosnia. And they hadn’t come together but what had gone through the war, they had prepared themselves for this dialog and watch how Marshall mediated this group was so incredible. It was all day long and they had agreed to come to this meeting and share all the pain that they had experienced during the war. And at the end in the evening there was so tense when they arrived, the two groups of women, when the evening came they were all dancing together. And that was just an incredible impression that stayed with me. How Marshall, really to see him live how he worked with these groups. Very powerful and very beautiful how it can change when your intention is to bring peace together. People together for peace.
26:50
WW: Wow, that answer definitively deserves more than one sentence, much more than one, thank you for that. So eight and final question. Do you think that there could ever be a world free of all kinds of violence?
D: Oh that would be wonderful but I don’t know in this lifetime. I have hope but who knows with the way things are and this keeps staying enough, same old habits not much hope but I have hope that it will eventually for the next generation will change.
27:32
WW: Thank you so much Deborah, thank you for taking your time to answer my questions so patiently. But most of all, for being an inspiration for compassion and empathy. And at least for me I can say: that I again have learned a lot from you, and I got very inspired and motivated to listen more carefully in the future and also with a more conscious mindset towards compassion, thank you so much for that.
27:58
D: Thank you too, and thank you Max (technician) for being here, supporting us (laughs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_VYCOOiJ-M
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